What do you think the appropriate course of action is for Henderson County?

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After careful consideration, I must say, I have changed my mind, as unpopular as it maybe, to think the nativity scene needs to be moved to property not belonging to any municipalities. Here's why. The court cases FFRF is standing on here is County of Allegheny v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 1989. In this case, the Supreme Court found that creche (nativity scene in this case) standing on the grand staircase of the Allegheny County Courthouse in Pittsburgh was impermissible. FFRF will use this case and the Judge will have no choice but to rule in favor of the plaintiff. It is a no win situation. Henderson County could then appeal the decision of the Judge but, this will very expensive for the taxpayers of the county and it's not every day you get a Supreme Court ruling over turned.

The other option would be to allow permits for anyone to display what they want on the Court House lawn. This is the route Manitowoc County took when they were sued by FFRF for very same reason. Unfortunately, the following year, the county was flooded with request for permits from the FFRF lynch men to display their religious displays which consisted of snowmen holding signs saying "God is dead", "there is no God", "Jesus is not the reason for the seasons" .... you get the point. And, the first time you deny one of these atheist wacko's their right to display their trash, it's back to court. Permits .... not so much an option I'm thinking.

Probably the best course of action would be to move the nativity scene, not far, but to a location that is not owned by the municipalities. At that point, the FFRF would have no grounds to sue. Then I would suggest that the Athens community and Henderson County show their disgust with this anonymous plaintiff and the FFRF by displaying as many nativity scenes an religious display as possible on private property and businesses through out the County and East Texas for that mater.

I believe Henderson County can avoid a costly lawsuit, that in all reality seems to be a no win situation and still celebrate Christmas as we have for so long. I am not a lawyer and I don't claim to know much about law. That is my opinion on this topic and I would appreciate any feed back.

John

John,

While I do agree with you 99% of the time with your posts on KLTV, I voted for the nativity scene to be moved off the courthouse lawn. I am a firm believer in separation of church and state. Religion or any symbols should not be viewed on any form of government building. There are too many cultural differences within the American society. In order for the government to respect all, it should remain neutral or display all. Neutrality is the cheapest way for the government to go. I am Wiccan, one of the most misunderstood peaceful religions there is. No, it does not consist of casting spells like the majority of the public believes. Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess. Live at peace with nature and mother earth.

I have spoken with many pastors, as the business I am in deals directly with all religions and churches. I do have the utmost respect for other religions even if I dont agree with their belief system. I have simply explained it like this: Every person has to do their own soul searching when it comes to religion. Educated themselves. They will know what is right for them when they feel whole inside and like nothing is missing. Once that person has found that feeling, they have found their home and what is right for them.

Most do not realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday. In 350 A.D. Pope Julius I declared Christmas a Christian holiday in an effect to convert more pagans to Christianity as Christianity was in decline. He also declare it to be the official birth of Jesus since his actual date was never recorded. The Roman church banned Yule celebrations, but it did not stop the people. The Church started seeing Christians converting back to paganism and conformed to bring the people back to the church. The information is readily available from the Vacitian. I have had to do numerous studies on this subject and other Christian holiday's in my cultural studies in college.

By no means am I trying to start an arguement. I just want people to open their eyes and minds and realize that we should all be respectful of each other, not only as a human but also with our different cultural backgrounds. Moving of the nativity to a private property or religious facility would bring peace and respect of everyone. The government should not be aloud to dictate our personal religious beliefs. If we all believed the same, there would only be one church and one faith.

Samara Morgan

Well Ms. Morgan,
Actually I think you agree with me 100% of the time. Although, I did initially chose to Leave the nativity scene as it is, after further review, had a change of mind. I agree the nativity scene should be moved to a non-municipality location. My passion on this subject comes from being a staunch Constitutionalist. I believe in the Constitution and I believe the true meaning of the establishment clause has been perverted by certain Supreme Court cases and then exploited by hate groups such as FFRF. Also, I would like to say I too have lots of time in such cultural studies and I am familiar with Wiccan. Thanks for your post.

John

sdm1201 wrote:John,

Most do not realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday. In 350 A.D. Pope Julius I declared Christmas a Christian holiday in an effect to convert more pagans to Christianity as Christianity was in decline. He also declare it to be the official birth of Jesus since his actual date was never recorded. The Roman church banned Yule celebrations, but it did not stop the people. The Church started seeing Christians converting back to paganism and conformed to bring the people back to the church. The information is readily available from the Vacitian. I have had to do numerous studies on this subject and other Christian holiday's in my cultural studies in college.

By no means am I trying to start an arguement. I just want people to open their eyes and minds and realize that we should all be respectful of each other, not only as a human but also with our different cultural backgrounds. Moving of the nativity to a private property or religious facility would bring peace and respect of everyone. The government should not be aloud to dictate our personal religious beliefs. If we all believed the same, there would only be one church and one faith.

Samara Morgan

ms. morgan,

i have a great deal of appreciation for your candor and openness. i respect your bravery at being openly Wiccan in an area that could be hostile to practitioners. being Pagan myself, i don't share my religious beliefs with the people in my community to protect my children from that potential issue.

i have to also commend you on your patience and respect to all religions. i have met a number dogmatic and fundamental pagans over the years... imagine my utter shock. the majority of them were openly hostile towards Christians, disdainful of Christian worship practices, and adamant that Christians should not be allowed to utilize some of the symbols that our faiths have in common. it was...strange.

as you well know, being a student of the arts, symbols belong to all of us through the shared beauty of the collective unconscious. i'm disturbed by the hate speech that originates from the philosophical viewpoint of atheism. were it simply a non-religous, non-God/Goddess movement, there wouldn't be an issue, but they've set themselves up through vile rhetoric to be anti-Christian. i simply cannot abide that.

littlesouthernmama

I live in Henderson County and pass the Nativity Scene daily. Puts a smile on my face and prayer in my heart. It was 1 person who says they are from Henderson County and they wouldn't even leave their name so who knows if they are or not? Regardless, I voted for MY Commissioners and Judge to vote and stand for the majority. Christians are the majority here. We pay our taxes in Henderson County. OUR CITIZENS raised the $ for OUR NATIVITY SCENE that WE want placed on OUR COURTHOUSE LAWN. I appreciate the publicity this has brought to public..it has brought CHRISTIANS TOGETHER and got people talking about OUR LORD & SAVIOR! THANKS AGAIN! GOD CAN AND IS USING THIS ONE ANNONYMOUS CALL TO WORK FOR HIM! THANKS ANNONYMOUS ATHIEST CALLER!

kathys71 wrote:I live in Henderson County and pass the Nativity Scene daily. Puts a smile on my face and prayer in my heart. It was 1 person who says they are from Henderson County and they wouldn't even leave their name so who knows if they are or not? Regardless, I voted for MY Commissioners and Judge to vote and stand for the majority. Christians are the majority here. We pay our taxes in Henderson County. OUR CITIZENS raised the $ for OUR NATIVITY SCENE that WE want placed on OUR COURTHOUSE LAWN. I appreciate the publicity this has brought to public..it has brought CHRISTIANS TOGETHER and got people talking about OUR LORD & SAVIOR! THANKS AGAIN! GOD CAN AND IS USING THIS ONE ANNONYMOUS CALL TO WORK FOR HIM! THANKS ANNONYMOUS ATHIEST CALLER!

kathy,

i wholeheartedly agree with you and voted that way in the poll. i think the nativity should be left in place to raise the spirits of all that pass and to express the religious stance of our founding fathers. FFRF calls itself an atheist group but is, in reality, a spiritually bereft group of hate mongers. i'm sorry that you and the other residents of henderson county are having to fight this fight with this reprehensible group. i think that any that report they have been the caller to a hate filled organization like FFRF are telling the world that they are cowardly and spiteful. a nativity scene, even if you aren't Christian, is a symbol of faith, peace, beauty, grace, dignity, and love. there is no evil in the presence of the nativity on municipality property. i hope the county stays firm and doesn't capitulate to these spiritual bullies.

littlesouthernmama

Thank you so much for the encouragement. What a shame it comes to fighting for what is right, but we will! And we have good people in office with great morals, God fearing people and that's exactly what we need. We are going to fight for this and pray for our enemy. They have know idea how God is using them. He sure works in mysterous ways. Always Awesome! Again thank you so much!

Tooo funny!....as a matter of fact I do know about Church of Christ..I have gone to one for many years! Oh yes they believe in Christmas and Easter. I was raised in an ASSEMBLY OF GOD...LOVE THE BAPTIST and METHODIST, along WITH CATHOLICS! I have enjoyed them all and respect each and everyone of them. I have an awesome God! I have been to many Churches. I love them all. There are going to be MANY denominations in the KINGDOM OF THE LORD! The word of God is found in The Bible...its not a religion...its in your heart and soul..I'm praying for you and God LOVES YOU TOO. God is love not the anger you show. Must be hard being so angry. Again God bless ya and Merry Christmas!

As I said...there will be ALL DENOMINATIONS in Heaven! Our Lord and Savior looks upon the hearts of His people...and YES we are ALL God's children. He gave us free will...if some turn their back on Him...HE gave YOU the freedom to do so. There is nothing offensive about Our Nativity Scene..it is simply a mother and father with a baby in a manger....no offensive words to read or promotion of a specific religion. Just because someONE thinks they know what it means or stands for, is their speculation is no ones problem to figure out but the ones doing the speculating. After all...posting pictures on facebook or elsewhere of ones family and moments they treasure is fine for you to do which others could find offensive and be like you and try to force you to remove your memories. Regardless of the outcome of this God is getting what HE wants....People talking about HIM! Wow isn't HE AWESOME!...GOD BLESS YA YOUR DOING WHAT HE WANTED WHETER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT!....HE WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS EVEN THROUGH YOU!

Process Deist wrote:First, let's re-examine what I said about the Church of Christ. They do not 'celebrate' what is considered the Liturgical Calendar. The same can be said of many Henderson County Churches. I did not say they did not believe in the Birth of Christ or the Passion of Christ. They do not have special worship on these days.
Now to the list of Churches you list as friends. I notice that you did not mention Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saints, Mennonite, Eastern Orthodox, Unitarian Universalist and a number of other groups that make up a small portion of the Henderson County population.
And, of course, you completely forgot to address the issue of Kwanzaa and how the government of Henderson County honors our newest Holiday.
I have not posted in anger. I have posted to engage in thoughtful conversation about the callous nature of religions.

i fail to see where either of your posts in this thread make any definitive or legitimate point...about...anything. we're currently discussing the nativity. the fact that black churches celebrate kwanzaa, etc. has no bearing here unless you are arguing that all should be represented. if that is, in fact, your point then make it. nitpicking the semantic and minute details of the various denominations of Christianity isn't really relevant as the nativity in question isn't supporting any one denomination of Christianity. perhaps you'd have a valid point if the word Protestant were emblazoned on the side of the manger...but it isn't.

Littlesouthernmama is so correct and on target.

@Processed Diet
Your comment makes no point. You atheist are all the same. Your Anti-American agenda and your hate and antipathy for all things only Christian void you of any common sense or compassion and leave you with only a message of hate and intolerance.

Process Deist wrote:Government is created for the purpose of administration of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
WE individuals create our own personal beliefs to administer our own personal lives. That is our freedom.
Don't make MY/OUR government comply with YOUR personal religious beliefs.
Get the religious symbols off the government property!

you do realize that the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you, don't you? the Supreme Court that is, in fact, part of YOUR government?

Sorry 'bout calling you on your BS there Deist, but you are not fooling any of us. Your hate and anger towards all things Christian is too revealing. Deist my ass ......

You know what ....these people against what is displayed on MY COURTHOUSE LAWN ..are known in TEXAS as foreigners without a clue....GO BACK OR GO WHERE YOU ASSUME YOUR COMFORTABLE AT...now where you eventually end up is heaven or hell and its a choice you make....BECAUSE GOD GAVE US FREE WILL!...I pay my taxes here in Henderson County and voted for MY elected officials because they are good moral people...if ya got a problem with a statue of a Mother and Father adoring a baby in a manger you must HATE your pictures of your children, so-called loved ones, and memories...THANKS FOR ALL THE FREE PUBLICITY FOR THE LORD! THIS IS WHAT HE WANTED....AND GUESS WHAT ELSE..HE USED AN ATHIEST TO GET IT! Waht an awesome GOD HE IS!

These people that Don't belive in any thing that our country does .. Need to go back where they belong and LEAVE us Alone ..
Bull on non belivers.. Take a HIKE

Sister Lilly wrote:ISTM that our nations laws give each one of us equality. The Henderson County elected officials took an oath of office that they would protect and defend our law and constitution. This means that Islamist, Hindus, Jews, Budist, Christians and all others are to be treated fair and equal.
If the local government wants to promote a holiday for Christ; then they better be just as concerned about promoting holidays for the others. No nation was ever free when they denied the holidays of the minority religions.
Give every religious holiday a big display on the courthouse lawn or give everyone nothing.

The lights and the nativity scene are put on by Light up Athens, not the local Government. The controversy is that the nativity scene is on the Court House lawn. But, this does not violate the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment because it is not the only decoration on the lawn. If the nativity scene was the only decoration on the lawn then it could be argued that it may be an endorsement of one religion. But it's not. There is no argument here. Only the disgust of a very few hateful people within our community.

Thank you John for the effort to educate me.
Alas, I am here. I see and hear what is going on every day in Athens.
The empty headed saber rattling, the exaggerated braggadocio, and the placing of pride above common sense and knowledge.
Do not gamble my tax dollars on a lawsuit Henderson County can't win.
Face it, we know this will be very expensive to defend in the courts. Our chance of winning is slim.

Sister Lilly,
I am not so sure that Henderson County is in violation of anything. Initially I felt the same way. I thought the nativity scene should come down and not risk a lawsuit that was a no win case. However, County Attorney Clint Davis believes they are within their legal right in this case. The FFRF are stating a Supreme Court case, County of Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), held that a county government’s creche displayed in the county courthouse was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. In that case, the nativity scene was the only decoration on the lawn.

A prior case Lynch v. Donnelly 463 U.S. 783 (1983), states that if there are other secular decoration, such as reindeer, santa clauses, candy canes, etc. then it cannot be construed as promoting a single religion and therefore is not in violation of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. However, it also goes on to say that each case would have to be viewed on an individual basis.

What it boils down to is that FFRF is most likely bluffing and just trying to bully a small Christian community in East Texas. But, there is still the possibility they could sue. If they do it will not be as cut and dry as FFRF initially claimed. FFRF would have to prove that the intention behind the Christmas decorations was for Henderson County to promote specifically Christianity. I don't think that would be that easy. But, let me say, I am not a lawyer nor a scholar in Constitutional law. This is my little conclusion on the information I have read on this topic.

I say leave it and wait and see if they sue. Atheist make up 1.6% of the population in this Country. One person in a county of over 70,000 people complains about the nativity scene to these anti-American wacko's and the county is going to back down without a fight when unless proven in court other wise are within their legal rights to celebrate Christmas? I don't think so!

I have finished reading and researching your post on History.
I was not surprised to see that it is financed by Rev. Rick Warren and Saddleback Church.
Their writings are not balanced and certainly not endorsed by Mainline Protestant Churches. The reading I did indicated a strong Fundamentalist, Evangelical World View. This of course shows the deep divisions within the Christian movements. Nothing new to Christianity, when one considers the writings of the Apostle Paul against the actions of the Disciple Peter.
To make the points for Christian Dominion-ism in America they employ a number of 'slight-of-hand' tricks with words. Notice how many times the word God is used and how the name Jesus almost never appears carved in our monuments. God is acceptable to almost all of the World Religions. Hell, I am a Deist and I worship God, I just don't find Jesus to be a Deity. A number of our early patriots were Unitarians or Deists.
I do think the 'History' argument you have put forth is weak when juxtaposed with the Constitution.
The Lady Lilly is right. The chances of Henderson County winning in court is very slim.
Let the Churches of Athens put the religious symbols on their property.
These are my thoughts and not those of some organization.

Processed Deist ...
If my argument is indeed weak, does that mean you are suggesting our Founding Fathers were not men of God? Other than simply disputing my comment, I do not see where you are putting forth a rebuttal based on any fact. Are you arguing that our Founders were not Christian? Also, I must say, there are many things that I do not agree with about the Christian religion as well. But, I don't find it to be my place to right the wrongs of anothers evolution or even lack there of. I find it disturbing that the Deist, like the Atheist devote so much time to disproving the Christian religion. I find that to be a little intolerant and naive thinking that anyone can have any control over anothers spiritual evolution, either for better or for worst. Just my thoughts .... not the thoughts of any organized denomination!

Process Deist wrote:That rips it. Me and my friends and Family wanted to enjoy a weekend at Lake Fork and we started responding to a news story on Tyler News. Then we found ourselves invited to take part in an online webpoll at Free Forum East Texas News and we fell for it hook-line and sinker. We actually thought you wanted our opinions.
Then we are insulted by the very moderators who invited us.
That is the nastiest TROLL that ever existed. Invite the public and then rip them apart when the show up and share their thoughts.
By the way, I hold a degree from Henderson County Jr. College and own land in Henderson County.
Get the Christ Celebration off the Courthouse lawn.

Please see the post in Admin or contact Admin through private messages for any further discussion of banning. It isn't topic relevant.